Michelle Salyer:                Welcome to Outside the Box with BRPH, where we discuss the most innovative, interesting, and outside-the-box solutions to some of the most exciting and challenging projects in the world of architecture, engineering, design, construction, and mission solutions. You’ll hear directly from the problem solvers at BRPH as we dive deep into the latest news, trends and topics in aerospace, defense, manufacturing, and industrial, commercial, education, entertainment and hospitality. I’m your host, Michelle Salyer, and I’ll be your guide as we open the lid on these topics and more, and invite you for an insider’s look at one of the most successful, fastest-growing employee owned AEC firms in the United States. Welcome to Outside the Box with BRPH.

Space junk on-orbit, fueling tankers, space barges and tugboats, repair robots lunar base camps. It may sound like a sci-fi movie or a dystopian novel, but these are some of the technologies in development right now that are changing the game of space exploration and space commerce. Here today to discuss what’s next in space, the evolving trends and technologies you need to know about is Dave Buck, president of BRPH Mission Solutions, a retired lieutenant general from the United States Space Force, and former commander of the Joint Functional Component command for space. Dave, welcome back.

Dave Buck:                        Well, thank you, Michelle. Happy to be here. And it’s always a pleasure to talk about things that I’m truly passionate about.

Michelle Salyer:                I’m glad to have you. Now, before we jump into our topic today, I want to give our listeners some perspective on your credentials. When you retired a few years ago as the former commander of the Joint Functional Component Command For Space, you were leading nearly 20,000 men and women who were responsible for protecting and defending critical US and allied space capabilities. So obviously that’s no small job. So I just want to put this in perspective in terms of size of employees that’s comparable to some Fortune 500 companies, Hormel Foods, JetBlue, Motorola, Avis, U.S. Steel, Discover. That’s pretty darn impressive.

Dave Buck:                        Well, again, thank you for that, Michelle. I am humbled, but we’re really not here to talk about me.

Michelle Salyer:                Well just want to set the stage for your qualifications here. Always modest. But last time you were a guest here on the podcast, we talked about normalizing the space domain. I might add that it has been one of our most popular episodes to date, so thank you for that. But let’s take that conversation a little further and explore some of the trends and technologies that might help make that happen that, will facilitate the normalization of the space domain and perhaps make it as commonplace as the land, air, and sea domains.

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. Let’s get right into Michelle, A caveat right up front, a get-out-of-jail-free card, if you will. As we unpack this topic, it’s important to note that the space domain is such a fertile environment that we’re really only scratching the surface here. Suffice it to say that there are other trends, there are other technologies that may be more impactful. It’s a matter of perspective, and to that, I say peace. I get it. But the bottom line is that we need to think about space as a place to be … Leveraged, to be exploited, to be developed, protected, defended. You pick a word just like we do air, land, and sea.

Michelle Salyer:                Right. Got it. So in your opinion, what is the number one thing we need to do, or number one thing we need to pursue, or what’s the most important technology driver that will enable us to grow our space capabilities beyond what they are today?

Dave Buck:                        For me, it’s mitigating and or removing orbital debris.

Michelle Salyer:                So essentially garbage collection in space.

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. I can live with that analogy, Michelle. It’s really a pressing national security and economic concern. Orbital debris runs the gamut from large expended rocket bodies to, I don’t know, non-operational satellites, and of course, small, tiny pieces of debris, thousands and thousands of pieces of junk orbiting our earth. If we don’t address this issue, this could lead to catastrophic collisions and could make orbital regimes unusable. It could make it a day without space, which is almost unthinkable. But there are looming questions that surround this challenge. It’s who should be responsible for funding and developing the technologies? Who should operationalize this capability? And of course, there’s political concerns as well, Michelle. Sovereign Nations may not want commercial or international entities to remove their expended boosters, defunct satellites, or other debris due to national security concerns and other issues.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah. I can definitely foresee many, many issues with that. What’s the answer?

Dave Buck:                        Well, the large pieces of debris are obviously easier to see, track and avoid. It’s the smaller pieces of debris that are more concerning. It’s been said time and time again that even a tiny piece of debris traveling at orbital speeds can wreak havoc destroying operational satellites, causing hundreds or even thousands of pieces of additional debris. That in turn creates the likelihood of future debris in a dangerous ongoing cycle. And if we don’t do something about it, this debris will remain in orbit for a hundred or more years.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So again, but what do we do about it?

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. I know. That’s a tough question. I’m trying to … I shouldn’t avoid it so let me just unpack what I think what we need to do about it. Right now we do our best to track and avoid debris, and we will continue to do that. People say, “Well, space is a big place.” But space is getting increasingly congested. So there are really two approaches, and it boils down to debris mitigation and debris removal. Now, what’s the difference? Well, mitigation is essentially preventing the creation of new debris, like through better satellite and booster designs, control the orbiting, adherence to international norms, et cetera. Active removal employs technologies such as … I’m just going to make some stuff up here. Robotic arms, nets, lasers, things to capture and safely remove the existing debris, the debris that’s already on orbit.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So in your opinion, who should operationalize and fund this massive effort, and where are these international norms coming from that you mentioned?

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. That’s really the crux of it, right? I wish we had consensus on this, but we truly don’t. This is a hugely challenging issue. Operationally, it’s not really a matter of technology or technological maturity. We’ll get there. Rather, it’s who should fund this massive effort? Whose responsibility is it to clean up space debris from other space ferry nations? It’s an expensive proposition. Is it the United States responsibility? Is it the Department of Defense’s responsibility? Is it commercial’s responsibility? Some kind of international body? So in my opinion, it comes down to return on investment. And it’s not just a monetary return, Michelle, with all of these mega constellations in LEO, eventually commercial companies will see a business case for preventing debris generation. But I think for the Department of Defense to get involved, it may have to serve some sort of dual purpose role. Like not only does it do debris removal or debris mitigation, but it also would be like an escort for an HVA.

Michelle Salyer:                What is that?

Dave Buck:                        I’m sorry. We do that all the time in the military. I apologize. HVA, high value assets. Assets that are extremely expensive and or serve a critical national security function.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Gotcha. Sounds like this topic could be one for a whole new podcast on its own, but for the sake of time, let’s go ahead and move on. So what else is driving advancement of technology and space right now in your opinion?

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. There’s so much. I get all lathered up about in-space servicing, mobility, and logistics, the acronym would be ISAM or OSAM obviously. As human beings, we’re explorers at heart and we will continue to push deeper and deeper into space. There is a pressing need to transport, to build, maintain material solutions beyond earth, beyond the terrestrial solution. Satellites need repair or refueling. Space stations require supplies and future lunar and Martian bases … Sounds odd to say Martian bases. But it’s a reality. Require logistical networks. And one of the big LIMFACS … Sorry, there I go again. One of the big limiting factors for satellites and human space travel is fuel. Also for satellites, there really is a trade-off between tech refresh and life on orbit. In other words, you don’t want old technology on orbit, but it’s expensive to put new satellites on orbit. So there’s a trade-off there.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah. That makes sense. Especially since technology is evolving so rapidly. So carry on with that thought.

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. Precisely. Let’s talk about … I’m going to boil it down to three terms that are predominantly associated with ISAM. Space servicing implies maintaining, refueling, repairing, upgrading spacecraft. I like to use analogies because it’s hard to visualize space. So it’s almost like roadside assistance in orbit. I really do think it’s helpful, especially with the space domain, to use these type of analogies to things people are more familiar with.

Michelle Salyer:                So like AAA and space basically.

Dave Buck:                        You get it.

Michelle Salyer:                Calling the tow truck.

Dave Buck:                        That’s right. Exactly. Then space mobility covers the movements of assets in space from adjusting orbits to vehicles, traveling between the earth and moon. Think of a tugboat positioning a container ship or a barge transporting vehicles across the waterway. And the third term that I think is associated with ISAM is space logistics. And this is all about supply chains. How we transport cargo, fuel, and even people through space. This is analogous to say air or sea transportation. And of course all of these three areas are interconnected.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So servicing, mobility, and logistics. So what are some of the enablers that will make this possible? In some ways it seems like we should already be further along with this.

Dave Buck:                        We’re making progress. It’s expensive, it’s high-tech, but a few things really do need to happen. And then I’m just going to tick off some things at the top of my mind here. In-space refueling. This allows satellites to fuel and refuel in orbit, and this drastically reduces the launch weight and thereby costs and increases on orbit mission availability. So that’s one. Another one would be autonomous spacecraft and servicing vehicles. Vehicles that can automatically dock with satellites or vice versa. That can dock automatically without a human in the loop to extend life by making repairs and technology upgrade and orbit. Maneuverable motherships. I’ve heard these referred to as other things, but I’ll just call them a mothership. In orbit that house several satellites and can pre-position and deploy these satellites at a time and place of our choosing. This is like, it’s like having a launch pad in space without the constraints of terrestrial-based launch.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. Okay.

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. I think that’s huge. Another one would be space tugs and orbital transfer vehicles. These tow trucks would move satellites and cargo between different orbits, of course, to save, like I talked about earlier, precious fuel. What else is out there? Things like lunar and Martian supply chains. The ability to establish regular supply routes between the earth, the moon, and yes, eventually Mars.

Michelle Salyer:                So you’re saying all of these things are already in the works.

Dave Buck:                        They’re being thought about. Some of them are more mature than others.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Tell me where we are with some of these technologies. What’s the closest?

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. And I’ll talk in terms of TRL or technology readiness levels. I’d say we’re closest on the TRL with tugs and orbital transfer vehicles and motherships probably followed by … And I’m just spit balling here. Probably followed by autonomous spacecraft that will permit in-space refueling and maintenance. Lunar and Martian supply chains are the farthest out. And obviously pun intended. I think I’ve said this before, but when a satellite runs out of fuel or malfunctions, it usually becomes a piece of space debris. That’s a huge waste of money and resources. Imagine a future where satellites are refueled and repaired or upgraded instead of just abandoned in place.

Michelle Salyer:                I’ve said this before, living on the space coast, we see sometimes two launches a day. So it really does make you think about the amount of stuff floating around up there in space. This technology is not that hard to imagine given all of the EVAs that we’ve seen NASA do over the years on the International Space Station.

Dave Buck:                        Okay. You’re using acronyms again. EVAs.

Michelle Salyer:                I do know that one. Extra-vehicular activity. Got the basic ones down.

Dave Buck:                        Very good. By my way of thinking logistics, they’re foundational to the development of a lunar economy. Beans, bullets, it’s foundational to everything we do in war. And in operations, landers, tugs, refueling depots, they’re critical for sustaining a human presence on the moon and beyond. The vision is pretty clear for me, a future where space isn’t just a place where we explore, but can you imagine space is a place that we actively maintain and develop? And the key to this is to create a robust, fully operational space infrastructure. And it goes back to that normalizing the space domain, like we talked about earlier.

Michelle Salyer:                In some ways this sounds so feasible, but at the same time it seems very challenging and very far off in the future. Definitely going to require some global cooperation for this effort, but we won’t get into that. I know that communications is one of the biggest drivers of space commerce right now. Are there any developments in that area that you’re aware of? Talking about cell phones and connectivity and internet service?

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. I guess the one that’s most tangible to the public would be on orbit services direct to users.

Michelle Salyer:                What does that mean?

Dave Buck:                        Yeah .so clearly this will revolutionize how we stay connected. Imagine this, instead of needing a large, bulky, expensive satellite phone, your smartphone like the one you have in front of you right now, the one I have in my pocket will connect directly to satellites orbiting the earth. No cell towers are required. No other terrestrial infrastructure is needed. We’re not going to be saying, “Hey, I only have one bar. My comms are poor, or I can’t download or open a file.” That commercial that says, can you hear me now, that’ll clearly be a thing of the past. This is direct to device satellite connectivity, and it’s one that excites me a lot. And it’s really tangible to John Q. public, and it’s not just about voice comms, Michelle. It’s also about messaging, email, apps, on and on and on. This is a game changer, especially for people in remote or rural areas. Always available during emergencies. If you’re hiking in remote areas, disadvantaged users in underdeveloped countries, soldiers, sailors, Marines in disadvantaged areas. The list goes on and on and on. With direct service to users, people can still send messages, make calls, and access the internet.

Michelle Salyer:                It sounds like it could save a lot of lives.

Dave Buck:                        It’s impactful for sure.

Michelle Salyer:                But as we know, being connected to our devices 24/7 also has its drawbacks.

Dave Buck:                        No more unplugging. You want to go on vacation, right?

Michelle Salyer:                Exactly.

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. We have a little ways to go before that happens. The two key challenges are spectrum availability and de-confliction, and ensuring our satellites can connect with our smartphones without the need for new hardware.

Michelle Salyer:                Sorry, what do you mean by spectrum availability and de-confliction?

Dave Buck:                        So everything operates on the spectrum, and we may need to make sure we have availability on the spectrum without interfering with other users on the spectrum for this. So it’s all about spectrum deconfliction which is no small task.

Michelle Salyer:                So how far away are we from this?

Dave Buck:                        I think you’ll see it this year.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. So I assume you’re not sharing any top secret government information with us. So this is all-

Dave Buck:                        It’s all commercial.

Michelle Salyer:                It’s all commercial.

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. It’s all commercial. Commercially available stuff.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. So I guess once we’re that connected, gone are the days of the out-of-office messages that says, “I’m sorry, but I have limited service. I’ll be back in touch in two weeks.”

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. No more unplugging right?

Michelle Salyer:                Thanks a lot space.

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. Right.

Michelle Salyer:                So what other developments should we be expecting in terms of space technology, good or bad?

Dave Buck:                        There’s so much out there right now. I’m going to pick on one that I get excited about, and that’s cislunar space, and which for my money holds enormous potential for not only economics, but also national security and scientific missions as well. So I’m going to turn the tables on you a little bit here, Michelle. I know you didn’t sign up for this.

Michelle Salyer:                Oh gosh.

Dave Buck:                        But here’s a test for you. She’s going to kill me later. What is cislunar?

Michelle Salyer:                Well, that’s an easy one Dave. I assume you’re referring to the orbit beyond geosynchronous. So in other words, the space between the earth and the moon. Cislunar and all that orbits around it. Am I right?

Dave Buck:                        That’s pretty cool, Michelle. Be careful. I think some of the space stuff must be rubbing off on you.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah. I hope so.

Dave Buck:                        If only our educators, our legislators and our public knew more about space. And I get it, it’s hard. You can’t see what’s going on in space, and orbital mechanics are hard to grasp. But that would be amazing if we can do a better job educating the people that educate the public. But you are correct. Getting back to my quiz about what is cislunar. Yeah. It actually includes the space between earth and the moon and all the orbits around it. I’m going to get this number wrong, but somewhere upwards of 340,000 miles above the surface of the earth. But we already have well-defined definitions of low earth orbit, medium earth orbit, and geosynchronous orbit. So it may be easier to think of cislunar as the immensely large region in space that extends out from the Earth’s geosynchronous region to the moon’s orbit. If there is such a thing as a new frontier within a new frontier, cislunar is it. And we need to leverage this region for not only our economy, not only for our scientific gains, but also for national security.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Explain what you mean by that.

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. So cislunar is really the pathway for future space exploration. It will serve as a proving ground for missions to Mars. And in this vein, the moon is no longer just a destination. It’s really a stepping stone for deeper space exploration and a hub for new industries. Mastering Cislunar operations is critical in the coming years. Cislunar orbitology becomes a bit more complicated because both the earth and the moon’s gravitational influences are involved here. At higher altitude. The moon would exert increasing influence. I guess that’s obviously.

Michelle Salyer:                I’m following you so far.

Dave Buck:                        And there’s a point closer to the moon where the lunar gravity exerts primary influence. It’s like a tug of war in space. That’s how I have to think about it. Think about it this way. When you stand on the beach here in Florida and you watch the tides and waves, you are witnessing the moon’s gravitational pull. But since we’re on earth, the earth wins this gravitational pull contest every single time. Now, if we’re closer to the moon, the moon would win. So that’s the dynamics associated with cislunar operations.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So that’s why it’s-

Dave Buck:                        That’s a lot isn’t it?

Michelle Salyer:                Complicated. Well, I think I’m following you. So other than being a stepping stone for the exploration and scientific discovery, what is the advantage of being the first to master cislunar operations?

Dave Buck:                        Yeah, that’s a great question, Michelle. So as I think about it, the moon and the asteroids, they contain valuable resources and rare earth elements and metals like platinum and titanium. A persistent cislunar presence would be key or foundational to harvesting these. Further, I think the ability to operate in cislunar is critical for industries like tourism and ISAM we spoke about earlier. And just lunar infrastructure development, which seems like science fiction, but it’s real. Putting my military hat back on, prominence in cislunar would ensure control over critical orbits. It reduces our vulnerabilities to adversary and space-based threats. Really in a nutshell, mastering cislunar space is not just a technology challenge, it’s a race with far-reaching implications for global power, for economic opportunities, scientific missions, and really strategic dominance.

Michelle Salyer:                Well, geez, Dave, when you put it that way, it’s hard to believe that the return to the moon hasn’t been more of a priority, but obviously these are expensive propositions. Again, we won’t get into the politics right now, but I guess the question I’m sure many people are wondering right now is what does this all have to do with an architecture, engineering, and construction company? Why are we talking about this and why are you here, Dave?

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. That’s I guess, cutting to the chase. Clearly our industry, the AEC industry will play a key role. I think it’s going to play a key role in designing and building the infrastructure of space exploration, space settlement, and commercialization of space. As I think about this, what am I referring to? Things like orbital stations and spaceports will require innovative structural solutions. Governments, I believe, will seek AEC expertise to develop these lunar bases, things like spaceports and large structures in orbit. And the governments will offer long-term funding and contracts. I see a time when there’ll be space zoning and even construction codes.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow.

Dave Buck:                        Well, it seems way out there, but as space activities expand, AEC firms can help shape new codes, safety regulations, and planning for extraterrestrial environments. Everything we do here on earth-

Michelle Salyer:                Could be applied in space.

Dave Buck:                        We’ll extend that to space. Capabilities like in-space manufacturing, 3D, printing and automated construction will enable on-orbit resource utilization. Lunar and eventually Martian habitats require sustainable radiation hardened and autonomous construction methods. Structures must withstand extreme temperatures, radiation, microgravity. It’s a severe, severe environment. But I believe that early market entry is key, and companies that invest in space focused R&D can secure contracts from the government, can secure contracts from NASA, commercial companies and international space agencies. I think many technologies for space can improve terrestrial construction as well, and infrastructure resilience. Think of self-healing materials. So you can learn from space and apply that to what we’re doing here terrestrially.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah. Of course. So many NASA spinoffs that we use every day that people don’t realize came from space.

Dave Buck:                        Exactly.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah. What do you mean by self-healing materials, though?

Dave Buck:                        So if a piece of space debris strikes an object in space, think of like an elasticized material that has a hole in it, and then it heals itself.

Michelle Salyer:                Blowing my mind here. Back to the AEC question.

Dave Buck:                        Yeah. I think that was in a nutshell off top of my head the things that I was thinking about, but I think space is the next frontier for AEC innovation. Companies that stay ahead will gain a competitive edge, secure new revenue streams, and shape the future while benefiting from these things like we just talked about, from cutting edge technology for terrestrial applications.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So I will assume that since you’re speaking about this so intelligently, that BRPH has a plan for this.

Dave Buck:                        We are definitely talking about it, Michelle. We will not be left behind for sure.

Michelle Salyer:                Well, exciting to hear. Well, thank you so much, Dave. I appreciate you joining me today, and as always, it’s been incredibly informative. I hope you’ll come back to us to tell us more about the space domain and these exciting developments as they unfold.

Dave Buck:                        Thanks, Michelle. It’s always a pleasure.

Michelle Salyer:                Thanks for joining us today for Outside the Box with BRPH. We hope you’ve enjoyed today’s episode as we explored some of the most innovative and challenging projects and the most pressing issues and trends in the AEC world. Learn more about us at brph.com. Email us at [email protected] and follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X. You’ll find this podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Be sure to subscribe so you’ll be notified when new episodes are posted. See you next time on Outside the Box with BRPH.