Michelle Salyer:                Welcome to Outside the Box with BRPH, where we discuss the most innovative, interesting, and outside-the-box solutions to some of the most exciting and challenging projects in the world of architecture, engineering, design, construction, and mission solutions. You’ll hear directly from the problem solvers at BRPH as we dive deep into the latest news, trends, and topics in aerospace, defense, manufacturing and industrial, commercial, education, entertainment, and hospitality. I’m your host, Michelle Salyer, and I’ll be your guide as we open the lid on these topics and more, and invite you for an insider’s look at one of the most successful, fastest-growing employee owned AEC firms in the United States. Welcome to Outside the Box with BRPH.

It’s estimated that the global space economy will grow to 1.8 trillion by 2035. Space affects virtually every aspect of our daily lives, and those who master the space domain will undoubtedly profit. To get there, you need more than a rocket and a launch pad. You need a spaceport. But how do you build one? What are the first steps? How does the funding come together? BRPH has been designing and engineering spaceports since the 1960s, including Kennedy Space Center, Wallops Flight Facility, and Pacific Spaceport Alaska, to name a few.

So, we asked two of our Spaceport experts to share their insights on what it takes to get into the game of space and build a successful spaceport. Back for his second episode with us is Derek Nolek, National Practice Leader for Ground Support Equipment Engineering, and Steve Lloyd, Vice President of Aerospace and Defense for BRPH. Welcome to the show, guys.

Derek Nolek:                     Hi, Michelle.

Steve Lloyd:                       Thanks for having us on the show today.

Michelle Salyer:                Absolutely. Well, we’ve titled this episode, So, You Want to Build a Spaceport. It’s meant to be a bit tongue in cheek, but in all seriousness, you guys get a lot of inquiries from companies and even governments of foreign countries who want to get into the spaceport game but aren’t quite sure where to start. Organizations are looking to you to guide them in this process. So, what do you tell them?

Steve Lloyd:                       Well, that’s right. While we can’t cover everything today about what you would need to know in a 25 minute show, we can go over some of the most frequently asked questions and help everybody get started, get their ducks in a row, so to speak, on what it might take to get a good start.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Okay, great. So, let’s establish first what we’re talking about when we say the word “spaceport.” Derek, what is included in that term, and what elements and capabilities do you see as critical to an evolving spaceport?

Derek Nolek:                     Like I said, Michelle, spaceport’s much more than a launch pad and a rocket. It’s almost a city unto itself. If you want to think about an analogy of an airport or a seaport, they each have their own specialized facilities specific, and the spaceport has facilities specific to a launch vehicle in the spacecraft industry. When we talk about an airport or seaport, these are areas where people and goods are entering and leaving on a mode of transportation. They’re either leaving the land and going to sea or to air. On the other side of their trip, there’s another seaport or airport where they will arrive in a new destination on the land. A spaceport’s similar in that people and goods are leaving the land and entering space. And for most goods, space is the destination.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Good analogy there. So, let’s say, for the sake of simplicity, that we’re just talking about new spaceports in the United States. So, what approach and steps does it take to get started?

Steve Lloyd:                       Well, since no two spaceports will probably be the same, I think the initial steps to define is the overall goals of the particular spaceport, and then to consider what a roadmap is to achieve those goals, what it might look like. Also, understanding and documenting desired capabilities and timelines, stakeholders is also a great first step, while appreciating that this will most likely change and require adjustments as you go through the overall process.

The next step in most situations is to get started on a master plan. So, what is a master plan, and how will that help set the goals? Well, if you’re considering attributes like the location and initial perspective on the business needs, the policies, and operational activities, those are the kinds of things that should be considered to get started.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. And where does the money or the funding generally come from?

Steve Lloyd:                       Well, that’s a wonderful question. As we continue the evolution of spaceport development from being what was predominantly a government-owned and operated activity, the funding of these types of infrastructure projects is increasingly shifting more towards areas where state, local, and commercial, and even the private sector are getting involved. But that’s a whole other topic unto itself.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. We’ll get a little bit more into that in just a minute, but today actually, we had another episode come out all about site selection with Casey Barnes and Jennifer Harvin. So, I’m curious, where does site selection fit into this process? And I imagine that sites would be somewhat limited to avoid launching overpopulated areas, that kind of thing.

Steve Lloyd:                       Yeah. Absolutely. Well, similar to many real estate activities, it’s highly influenced by location, location, location. Right? So, the location of these types of facilities is very dependent on several key attributes, such as proximity to populated areas, so that you’re not driving the inherent risk of these types of activities around people. The geographics associated with desired launch trajectories are important. So, as you’re trying to launch, you want to be near a location that makes the entry into your desired location and space more advantageous. And then, the last thing is, there’s lots of political, policy, and environmental considerations that have to go into the development of a spaceport as well.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So, I imagine the sites would be pretty limited at this point?

Steve Lloyd:                       Yes, they are. When you take into consideration all of those attributes, there’s just not that many places that really fit the mold for most of the users these days.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. And with the increase in commercialization of space in the last decade especially, you’re suddenly dealing with both government and commercial partners. So, what’s the difference in your mind in terms of supporting one versus the other, or even the partnerships of both?

Derek Nolek:                     Well, Michelle, the biggest difference between commercial and government is their focus and their goals. I mean, the government agencies are focused in space as that that’s a defense capability. It’s the ultimate high ground, right? And they want to utilize it and defend it.

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm.

Derek Nolek:                     It’s a key role in our national defense strategy. And then, our commercial partners are looking at the space industry growth over the last decade and seeing it as a way to bring jobs and growth to the community. And they’re also excited about the expansion of different businesses in space.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So, communications, that kind of thing?

Derek Nolek:                     Yeah.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Derek Nolek:                     There’s plenty of commercial opportunities in space, and specifically, communication satellites. Right? I mean, we’ve seen a giant explosion of Starlink launches. And that capability to be able to have high-speed internet, be able to have communications that are reliable from any place on the Earth, not just within reach of a cell tower, that’s a huge capability, and it probably makes a lot of money. I’d love to replace my Spectrum account with something like that, if it was competitive. There’s other players in that market as well that are creating their own constellations. And communications is always going to make money, and the better, more reliable comms you have, the more valuable it is to people.

Michelle Salyer:                So, what role do you see for public and private partnerships?

Steve Lloyd:                       Okay. Well, let’s start with a high level definition of what a public-private partnership looks like, since everybody might not be familiar with that description. So, kind of the textbook definition of public-private partnership is an agreement between the government and a private company to work together on projects. PPPs, as we commonly refer to them, can use government funds to build infrastructure and provide that support to the public domain for use in some instances.

The concept of public-private partnerships has really gained traction and value over the last few years because, as we’ve transitioned, as we talked about earlier, from being predominantly a government-led activity into something where the more commercial and private users are interested in this, it establishes that relationship between the entities so they can both invest and both reap the rewards of the outcome of the development.

Michelle Salyer:                Obviously, there’s a lot of coordination that has to happen between local, state, and federal governments, as well as any academic institutions that are involved in spaceports. So, how would you help a client navigate all those varying requirements?

Steve Lloyd:                       With the diversity of stakeholders, there’s no single answer or approach that fits all the scenarios. My recommendation would be to develop a robust communication plan that would help inform all the potential stakeholders of the plan and implied requirements as a starting point. The next step would be to identify parties that have the experience and expertise to help define those requirements and establish the connectivity with the appropriate entities, because there are a lot of different players involved in this. And so, identifying all of those parties up front would absolutely help you get started.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. And so, that’s something that you can help a client identify?

Steve Lloyd:                       Sure. Absolutely. That’s one of the areas that I think we have a lot of value in because we are so engaged and informed across the ecosystem that we have a lot of connectivity there that we can provide value to our clients.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So, a lot of times you don’t know what you don’t know, right?

Steve Lloyd:                       Oh, of course. And going through it one time is a challenge. After you’ve been through it several times, the lessons learned and the value and experience can help simplify it for the next iterations.

Michelle Salyer:                Gotcha. Okay. So, Derek, walk me through some of the necessities in terms of facilities. So, what would a potential spaceport provider need to build, and are there items that tend to get overlooked in the initial planning, or elements that might come as a surprise?

Derek Nolek:                     Well, sure. There’s a whole bunch of surprises along the way. Sometimes it kind of comes from expectation, right? So, a spaceport, if you look at that, you kind of work backwards from a launch. Right? You have the launch pad and all the commodities and systems and things that need to support the launch pad itself. And then, when you work back from that, you say, “Well, what’s the previous step?” And you can kind of step backward from the launch with the vehicle into a number of different facilities, and it’s up to the spaceport to decide, are you going to entertain all of these, or some of them?

There’s an integration facility where they assemble the rocket together, where the payload comes together. There’s a payload processing facility, where you have an actual spacecraft is being prepared prior to being integrated with the launch vehicle. There’s launch vehicle and spacecraft manufacturing facilities. These can be very large buildings that are actually welding up tanks and parts of the boosters and actually manufacturing the flight hardware that’s going up to space. There’s a number of test facilities you may need to test the rocket engines, test the vehicles prior to.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah.

Derek Nolek:                     There’s also less exciting things, like testing the radio antenna and sometimes hydraulics prior to launch.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Derek Nolek:                     These are all very specialized types of facilities. They have unique needs, like power requirements and standoff distances and safety arcs, many times controlled access.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. And I would imagine, depending on the client, that some of these processes are taking place elsewhere, and-

Derek Nolek:                     They could be, yeah.

Michelle Salyer:                … and parts and pieces are being shipped in?

Derek Nolek:                     And if you have pieces being shipped in, then you’ll need receiving facilities. So, Port Canaveral is a great example where we have spacecraft coming into the port, the seaport, and then they’re being brought onto the land, and then brought back to a refurbishment facility. There’s times when you would fly in on an aircraft, a stage of a spacecraft, that would come into the Cape Canaveral skid strip or the Shuttle Landing Facility, and then that gets integrated.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Or the train.

Derek Nolek:                     Yeah.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah.

Derek Nolek:                     There’s also a rail access that Kennedy Space Center has that brings in solid boosters.

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm.

Derek Nolek:                     So, all of those things, depending on what’s the activity, what rocket is launching, what do you intend to do, and how do you intend to do it, how do you intend to support these different space companies? A lot of people may not need rail access.

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm.

Derek Nolek:                     Maybe they’re not planning on using solid boosters. Maybe they don’t want to use the seaport. Maybe they want to manufacture everything right there. There’s a lot of different ways to skin the cat with a spaceport, and it really comes down to being flexible and identifying, well, these can be manufacturing areas, or they could be refurbishment areas, and we have an airstrip, and we have some type of access. If you really need to do that, we can accommodate you. The more flexible you can be with the spaceport, the more varied different types of vehicles can show up.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. And then, I imagine, for launches, you need a launch control center, you need office space.

Derek Nolek:                     Yup. Yeah. There’s a lot of personnel there for just operations. So, they all need a place to sit and go out to the rocket and do whatever they’re doing. Yeah. Launch control center is a must, although that could be remote, as we see with SpaceX all the time, so.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. Wow. And would you say most clients have an idea of which facilities they need before they come to you?

Derek Nolek:                     Usually they do. The spaceport’s, not necessarily, but the launch providers do. So, it’s bringing those two people together to say, what do your plans look like for this vehicle, and how can we accommodate you, from the spaceport side, with the different facilities, and zoning, and just areas to delineate, and then, support them with the infrastructure needed, and the planning, and some of the environmental factors to get it put together.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. A lot to consider there, for sure.

Steve Lloyd:                       Yeah. I think a great example to take off on what Derek said was, civil aviation, back in the 40s and 50s, airports were just beginning to grow, and there wasn’t a lot of information about what the airport was going to provide. Every airline came in and had to develop their own capabilities. But fast-forward to today, and everybody comes into the airport, everything that they need, from the airlines to the passengers, is there. And that’s probably a goal of the spaceports in the future, that there is that standardized approach so that the infrastructure is there, the processes are there, the services are there to make it more user-friendly experience for everyone.

Michelle Salyer:                Gotcha. Yeah, that’s a good point. So, you got to think about things like restaurants and feeding people and all of those utilities.

Steve Lloyd:                       Yeah. Transportation, parking. Yes.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Lloyd:                       Everything.

Michelle Salyer:                So, basically, a small city that you’re building.

Steve Lloyd:                       Yes. Mm-hmm.

Derek Nolek:                     Yeah. A lot of the planning that goes into seaports and airports, they talk about multimodal strategies, where you have, not just roadway access, but maybe highway access and rail and different modes of transportation that can come in and bring goods and services and people to connect them. Right?

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm.

Derek Nolek:                     You’re thinking of a spaceport as a node in the transportation network.

Michelle Salyer:                Gotcha. And, of course, planning for the future and the unknowns that will bring.

Derek Nolek:                     Right.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So, obviously, space is certainly a competitive business, but Steve, in your opinion, is there currently any cooperation among different spaceports? Is this one of those, the rising tide raises all ships type of scenarios? Or what resources would you say are available to the newer players on the scene?

Steve Lloyd:                       Well, so that’s a great question. So, let’s talk about the resources to start with. So, there are resources that are aligned with governmental agencies and some on the commercial side that have defined objectives of enabling spaceport development and operations. The first one that comes to mind would be the Federal Aviation Authority, the FAA. So, they have a space division that was specifically developed to support both defense, federal, and commercial and civil space. And so, their goal is to standardize some of the activities and licensing. So, they’re there to help. There are other agencies that are on the commercial side, such as the Global Spaceport Alliance, and their primary goal is to help enable spaceport development around the world. And so, it’s a clearinghouse, a forum, for entities to gain information and share data around how they would potentially do business and what it takes to be productive in attaining those objectives that we talked about earlier.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So, there is some information sharing there. That’s good to know. Now, I understand you are part of the Global Spaceport Alliance? Is that correct?

Steve Lloyd:                       Yes, we are. So, BRPH is a contributing partner with the Global Spaceport Alliance. And when we talk about what information is available, the one thing that comes to mind is the work that that group is doing and the products being developed under the leadership of the GSA organization. More specifically, there is a working group that I’m the chair for and Derek is a great partner in, where we’re looking to develop information that would support the development. And one of our products that we’re working on right now is putting together a dictionary of all the technical documents and products that are out there that can be used by spaceports, either evolving or that are under operation, because there isn’t a clearinghouse for the data and information that’s out there. So, we’re helping to put together that library, so to speak, of information so that it’s available to anyone that is needing that type of information, either to get started or to enhance their operations.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Fantastic. I did not know that. So, let’s get to the big question. Talking about the future, what are your thoughts on spaceports evolving in non-terrestrial environments? So, low-Earth orbit, the Moon, Mars?

Derek Nolek:                     Well, I mean, we already have a spaceport in low-Earth orbit. It’s the ISS. Some tourists have gone there. We certainly, we send astronauts there. But yeah, I mean, eventually, new facilities, new spaceports, and LEO, the Moon and Mars, they will come over time. I think it’s going to be highly specific on what we find in those areas that people want to see and what activities people and businesses want to do. I think there’s going to be a lot of commercial activity. When you talk about the analogy of the gold rush in California, right, it’s probably not gold that we’re going to care about, but we’re going to see something on the Moon and in Mars that, or maybe a near-Earth asteroid, that sparks the imagination and somebody says, “I can make a business out of that.”

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm.

Derek Nolek:                     And then the spaceport will come.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. Yeah. So, you foresee a lot of competition in those areas?

Derek Nolek:                     Yeah, at some point.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Steve, any thoughts?

Steve Lloyd:                       Well, competition will come from the point where it becomes a true business. In space, the business is related to some of the items that Derek mentioned before, communications, GPS, defense. Once we get into an environment where it’s more commercialized, the competition will increase because the business approach will be a factor that will drive that desire for additional access to space, and not only access to space, but return from space, which is something we don’t always talk about. We talk about spaceports, people leaving, but we don’t always talk about the returning activities.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. What should we be concerned with there?

Steve Lloyd:                       Well, just like on the launch side, when you have something that’s leaving the Earth, coming back, you have the same type of risk associated with the public, but you also have a different set of requirements that are needed to process whatever’s coming back, whether it be people, commodities, flight hardware. So, they each have their unique challenges. And so, the ecosystem of space transportation will absolutely have to adapt to support the going out and the coming back, and then unique challenges that come from that.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Interesting. Hadn’t thought about that. Hadn’t thought about how we’re getting back. Well, I know here on the Space Coast, we are seeing multiple launches a day. So, how do you think spaceports can adapt to this proliferation of multiple launches, multiple providers, as these capabilities evolve?

Derek Nolek:                     As far as the spaceports themselves, I mean, as the launch cadence increases, all those upstream facilities we talked about get more busy, for lack of a better term. And so, all the activity in the spaceport is going to increase, and there’ll be more power demands, more transportation demands, more people going back and forth.

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm.

Derek Nolek:                     So, yeah. It’s just going to go from that sleepy little airstrip to the big major city airports that you see today. It’ll be similar to that.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So, wherever the spaceport is being built, they need to be prepared for that amount of growth. Okay. Steve, any thoughts on that one?

Steve Lloyd:                       Well, I think here on the Space Coast, we’re a perfect example of what happens when the launch cadence or the need for that capability increases and the strain that it puts on, not only the infrastructure, but on the other aspects of the environment, the impacts to other modes of transportation. Here we see it all the time, where you have to coordinate cruise ships leaving the port and directions that they take with launches, so that there’s no overflight, even though it’s out in the ocean, that they have to adjust the flight patterns for commercial air traffic. So, it just becomes more congested. And the timing of these and the throughput of these and the saturation of the available windows to go do that becomes more and more of an impact.

So, at some point, it will just become saturated, and that will obviously drive the proliferation of new space force development. It’s going to be a supply and demand situation.

Derek Nolek:                     Yes. I think the other aspect that we will see, we haven’t necessarily seen it yet, but just like there’s big airports and there’s small airports, I mean, there’s going to be… In the spaceport area, wherever you’re going to be able to operate efficiently, those are probably going to grow. So, there’s going to be spaceport winners and spaceport losers based on how easy it is to launch there and how efficient you can get your operations. If you have 300 launches to do, and they limit you to one a week, you’re not going to get your business plan.

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm.

Derek Nolek:                     It’s not going to work.

Michelle Salyer:                Gotcha.

Derek Nolek:                     So, you want to be able to work with a spaceport that can accommodate all those needs.

Steve Lloyd:                       Yeah. It may seem overly simplistic, but it will probably come down to almost purely a business decision.

Michelle Salyer:                It sounds like you’re able to provide some of that business advice more so than just design and engineering, but really helping these companies walk through this process? Is that correct?

Steve Lloyd:                       Oh, absolutely. There’s technical challenge, there’s operational challenges, there’s business challenges that go into this, and so, I think that’s where we have resources that we can provide. I mentioned earlier some of the resources that we can provide as a function of this Global Spaceport Alliance group that we support and participate in. But here at BRPH, we’re ready to help across the board with all the products that we talked about, to include some of the master planning, some of the organizational thoughts and lessons learned. Because one of the things that we do see here on a regular basis is all the requirements from the multiple launch providers that we interact with. So, we get a broad perspective of inputs and requirements and business practices that we can help to share with potential clients so that we’re really providing them a good clearinghouse of lessons learned and best business practices and, obviously, provide them the technical approach that we’re so well known for.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So, they’re not starting from scratch, essentially.

Steve Lloyd:                       Nobody’s starting from scratch.

Michelle Salyer:                Gotcha. Well, thanks so much, guys. Really appreciate you coming on the show, and enjoyed learning more about spaceports and how to build one. So, hope to have you on another episode soon.

Derek Nolek:                     All right, thanks, Michelle.

Steve Lloyd:                       Thank you very much.

Michelle Salyer:                Thanks for joining us today for Outside the Box with BRPH. We hope you’ve enjoyed today’s episode as we explored some of the most innovative and challenging projects and the most pressing issues and trends in the AEC world. Learn more about us at BRPH.com, e-mail us at [email protected], and follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X. You’ll find this podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Be sure to subscribe so you’ll be notified when new episodes are posted. See you next time on Outside the Box with BRPH.