Michelle Salyer:                Welcome to Outside the Box with BRPH, where we discuss the most innovative, interesting, and outside-the-box solutions to some of the most exciting and challenging projects in the world of architecture, engineering, design, construction, and mission solutions.

You’ll hear directly from the problem-solvers at BRPH as we dive deep into the latest news, trends, and topics in aerospace, defense, manufacturing and industrial, commercial, education, entertainment, and hospitality.

I’m your host, Michelle Salyer, and I’ll be your guide as we open the lid on these topics and more, and invite you for an insider’s look at one of the most successful, fastest-growing, employee-owned AEC firms in the United States. Welcome to Outside the Box with BRPH.

When it comes to planning new exhibits, zoos and aquariums can often be at a disadvantage from their counterparts in the theme park world. Their budgets are often limited to their fundraising capabilities, making it challenging to balance program wants with program necessities. An experienced architecture, engineering, and construction firm can be a valuable ally in this process.

With us today is Megan Nielsen Hegstad, team leader and senior architect for BRPH, which specializes in exactly these types of projects. Welcome, Megan.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Thank you.

Michelle Salyer:                So to get started, tell us a little bit about your background and your body of work and how you came to specialize in this area.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah, so I am a licensed architect and zoo exhibit designer, and I’ve been working in this field for a little over 20 years. In my background, I originally when I was growing up wanted to be a veterinarian, but then got to high school, did the college tours, saw the cadavers and said, “No, thank you.”

I realized I have too much empathy to do that part of the work, but then also followed my interest in art and math and found architecture and was fortunate enough when I graduated to start working at Zoo Knoxville on the Kids Cove exhibit there. And that was kind of a perfect overlap between all of my interests and passion, and I was hooked.

And from there I sort of mostly have specialized in guest experience type projects in primarily zoos and aquariums. And after Tennessee, I lived in the Seattle area for quite a while, which is kind of the mecca of zoo design.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. I didn’t know that.

Megan Nielsen H…:        And I worked for several of the firms there, including Portico Group, Jones and Jones, SHR, and others until I came to work for BRPH here in Orlando.

Michelle Salyer:                Often the client wishlist and the budget don’t necessarily align, so what are some ways that you can help zoo and aquarium clients prioritize their needs in terms of programming, and where do you even start with that process?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah. So for programming for zoos and aquariums, the first piece that we look at are the program itself, and that’s a program for the animals and for the guests, and then we work with the zoo, and we often will have sessions where we talk to the primary decision-makers and then also sort of breakout sessions with everybody from animal care staff to education, guest and event planning, to the janitors, right?

Michelle Salyer:                Wow.

Megan Nielsen H…:        And operations folks and everybody in between, and make sure we’re really hearing and understanding what are the parts of the program that we need to accommodate and what’s needed to make the exhibit work for the institution.

And from there, in terms of prioritization, always number one is animal welfare and well-being. And so we look at, for the particular species that they want, what is the right list of species for the exhibit? Sometimes there are reasons that we need to choose certain species and some don’t make the final cut. And then-

Michelle Salyer:                Do you have an example of?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Sometimes maybe there is someone on the species list, an animal that either isn’t a conservation priority, and another one is, maybe it’s one of the species that’s on AZA’s SAFE list, or is a priority for conservation and breeding versus one that doesn’t have that sort of same need.

Or sometimes we’re doing sort of blue-sky thinking with the zoo and we’re looking at a certain habitat, and there’s a reason why we can’t have that species. Like for instance, if we’re interpreting the Galapagos, maybe there’s a species like the tortoise or iguana that’s endemic to the Galapagos, but for legal and conservation reasons, the zoo in the other country can’t actually have that species. So then we look at what are other ways to interpret this animal or are there other species that can help tell that story that can actually live in the location where the zoo or the aquarium exists?

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Right?

Michelle Salyer:                Interesting.

Megan Nielsen H…:        So there’s sort of that layer. And then within the animals that are on the list, we look at what do they need to sort of meet their space and enrichment and containment needs, and then what is the story that the zoo is trying to tell?

And that’s where interpretive messaging comes in early in the game in terms of what is the big message and themes, and are each of the pieces of the program doing their part? They have to earn their place to stay in the budget.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Megan Nielsen H…:        And so then beyond that we look at what are the sort of minimum staff criteria? And for the guests, what are the pieces that are going to, number one, make the most impact, and so where can we kind of focus our dollars on those wow moments? And then also what’s going to help with the zoo budget long-term?

In other words, what are some maybe premium experiences that we can work in that are going to bring in revenue for the zoo? Or how can we use spaces in more than one way? So maybe in the daytime it’s a gallery and in the evening it becomes an event space.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Things like that so that they can optimize their budget and really focus on animals and message to really help hone that program list and try to help it come in alignment with the budget.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. Wow. So many things to consider. So it’s so much more complex than, “Hey, we want to have some zebras or…”

Megan Nielsen H…:        Right. Right. Right.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Well, and even from the animal standpoint, we have to look at what are the right lines and criteria, and so maybe, “Hey, we want 10 of these animals, but we only have 500 square feet.” Well, no, per AZA, you actually have to have 5,000 square feet. So you have to look back and forth and make sure that you’re meeting all those criteria first and then seeing what budget is left over for everything else.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. I imagine that different size zoos and aquariums have varying levels of staff. Tell me a little bit about how you can work with institutions of varying sizes, so in terms of bringing this program knowledge in?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Right. So sometimes when we work with sort of medium or larger-scale zoos, they may have staff on board that are either sort of their capital campaign staff or their own design and construction team. So we’re able to work with folks that might have experience in architecture or landscape or project management, things like that within the zoo, and then from there, work with individual departments.

Sometimes for smaller zoos we might be working directly with the director or the deputy director, and then they may not have those other folks on staff, or they may have just one person. And so part of that project might be working with sort of the heads of animal care or guest services, things like that, to help them understand what the design and construction process looks like, what prioritization looks like, and what’s to be expected in the process, sort of to help manage getting the information that’s needed for the project to be successful, and also for the team to not feel like there’s these surprises.

Or that what design is an iterative process, and so reassuring them that this is normal and part of the process to go through a winnowing of the concept and prioritization, and that in the end it helps them come out with the best possible project.

Michelle Salyer:                Great. Great. That’s great that you’re able to come alongside there and basically supplement their internal staff with your background and experience.

So you mentioned involving different types of stakeholders from the director to the janitor even. Why is that so important in that discovery process to involve so many different end users, I guess you would say?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah. Well, in the end, those are the folks that are going to have to live with it. And it’s important in any process to understand who are the primary decision-makers in the case of kind of a checkmate, like who is the end decision-maker? And so we work with the zoo to sort of establish those criteria upfront.

But really getting the input from all of the teams only helps make for a stronger project. It helps them feel like they’re heard and that the design reflects the actual needs of the institution.

And we’ve worked with all kinds of institutions and been to many institutions. I’ve been to over 100 zoos and aquariums over time and worked with lots of different teams. And what we like to do is sort of bring a sort of menu of options that they could utilize. And institutions sometimes have their way of doing things, they’ve always done it this way for as long as they know, and they don’t know why necessarily, it’s just how they do it.

And so bringing in examples from other organizations of this is what this could look like sometimes creates aha moments of how they could be more efficient or more impactful in what they’re doing, and really just helps them make the best decision about what makes sense sort of with the knowledge base we have now to help push exhibits forward into the future.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. Wow. That’s awesome. So why is it important for an institution to involve an architecture and engineering firm early in the process, if at all? And how early would you say is ideal?

Megan Nielsen H…:        I would say it’s important to involve a firm early in the process because in any project, there’s sort of the major pieces like the animal habitat and animal care areas and main guest spaces, but then there’s all of these support spaces that have to go into the project to make it work.

And one thing that we sometimes see when the AEC wasn’t involved early is sometimes those spaces aren’t accounted for when budgets are being established. And so then you get put into the position of having to say, “How can we cut down some of the other things that we really wanted as must-haves in order to make a functional exhibit or building?”

And so really making sure that you involve the design team as early as possible is really going to help the zoo make sure that they account for all of that, particularly when some of these projects are funded by zoo bonds or voter process.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Megan Nielsen H…:        I was on a project once where they did have some folks that helped put together internally the initial budgets, but they missed one of the AZA criteria, which was an off-exhibit outdoor space.

And so by the time the design team was brought on board, the budget was set. And so then we had to get really creative to try to find a way to fit that in because they would not get AZA accreditation without including it, but they already had set dollars. Right? And so just having that second set of eyes, it can be really helpful.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah, very valuable. Okay. So speaking of fundraising, one would often see a set of renderings that go along with a capital campaign or a fundraising campaign or even a voter initiative. So I imagine that an architect would kind of be taking a hiatus during that period while the money’s raised. Is that correct?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah. Yeah. That’s really common in these type of projects where we come on early with either master planning or concept and programming exercises to sort of work with the zoo to help them come up with their ideal concept and do some really cool renderings just to give them the pieces to work with their capital campaign and their development teams to help inspire those donors or obtain the voter support for a bond to be able to then come back when it’s time to do design and construction and carry it forward.

Ideally, both on zoo and aquarium projects and all of the projects that we do here at BRPH, we really want to be here for the long term. We are not coming in to try to just do a one-off project with our clients. We like to establish a long-term relationship and be those trusted advisors and be there with them over a series of several projects to just help propel their institution forward.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. And help with master planning, things like that.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Exactly.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. We’ve touched on this a little bit, but let’s dig a little deeper. So as an experienced architect, what do you think you can bring to the planning process that an internal staff might not?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah, so some of the things that we’ve touched on is making sure that we’re accounting for all of the different codes and governing bodies and guidelines that can be pretty complex on some of these projects and in fact counteract one another, like sometimes the animal needs and the energy code become sort of this tricky balance. And so being able to work with the zoo and work with the code officials to satisfy those kind of opposite requirements can be really important.

And also just coming with the understanding of how can we push the envelope? What are all the different ways we can approach this? And looking at and having the experience of having worked on several of these projects, again, can help you as an institution really decide what’s the best path forward and not just come from the view of one institution’s experience.

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm. And in terms of guest experience with the other work that you’re doing, not only with zoos and aquariums, but with theme park attractions, other attractions, science centers, museums, you bring that guest experience element as well, and you’re staying on top of the latest trends in that area.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, on the guest experience side, the work that we do definitely across theme parks, also from our work on education, we’ve done thousands of education projects actually, and bringing in sort of the knowledge about different learning styles, different personality types, from the theme park side, the storyline that we want to incorporate, all of that gets woven in to create a really rich guest experience for these projects as well.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. And I know that designing for guests with neurodiversity is also a topic that’s really important to you. Tell me a little bit about that.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah, so that is a topic that is both important to me from sort of my own experience. My mom was a teacher, and so I grew up helping support her classrooms and seeing kids with a lot of different kinds of needs. And then in my own life I have family members that are neurodivergent, and really seeing what a big difference it makes in being able to welcome everyone.

The data that we have now says that basically at least one person in every classroom worth of every field trip, most guest groups that you have coming to zoos and aquariums have somebody that has maybe some different needs from a sensory standpoint, whether that means that there’s someone who’s autistic or has had traumatic brain injury or Alzheimer’s or all of these different things that can impact the guest experience.

And making sure that we account for that in terms of understanding that there are sensory-seeking people that want to have those big, full-body, loud, exciting experiences, and then those that want to experience things or need a sensory break where they can be overwhelmed and they need kind of that space, they can break away and have calmness, quiet and a little more focus.

Michelle Salyer:                Things get overwhelmed.

Megan Nielsen H…:        And so we try to design these places so that there’s space for both of those. And by doing that, that means that family groups that may not have come out before now feel comfortable coming out, and it just broadens the attendance base and the community impact that the conservation organization can have.

Michelle Salyer:                That’s great. That’s great. And you’re well-versed in many different ways that zoos and aquariums can account for those differences?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah, we have worked with institutions that are working with places like KultureCity that are coming in sort of after the fact and providing support and sort of sensory bags and things like that. But ideally, we are taking those concepts from the beginning and building in those spaces as part of the exhibit, as part of the holistic experience.

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. I know there’s been a big shift in zoos in the last few decades to build more natural habitats to provide a better, more authentic experience for the animals. What are some of the ways that you can help them stay at the forefront of these best practices and standards?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Right. And so natural zoo exhibits really have been coming along in the last century, particularly from the Woodland Park Zoo master plan in the 1970s and then forward.

And there’s sort of another shift that’s happening now, like there’s naturalistic but then there’s also sort of going beyond just replicating an animal’s environment to trying to understand animal welfare and well-being and what are the behaviors that these animals need to be able to exhibit to have a full life? And what do they need, whether that actually looks natural or looks different to be able to do those behaviors?

So we’re seeing everything from zip lines for carnivores to be able to chase after meat, or for elephants that need something to sort of push on, having maybe tires and a large timber that they can safely do that with. And so it may not look exactly like it would in the wild, but it’s allowing-

Michelle Salyer:                Like a polar bear playing with a beach ball or something.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Right. Right. Exactly.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Exactly. Yeah. But it allows that animal to behave in a way that’s natural.

Michelle Salyer:                Interesting.

Megan Nielsen H…:        And even like we think about aquariums out in the wild, shipwrecks become coral reefs. And so we may have in an aquarium setting portions that are replicating certain water environments and then some that begin to utilize other aesthetics or backdrops that are more industrial, or a shipwreck. And then also the animals can work with that [inaudible 00:20:12]-

Michelle Salyer:                Still enrichment.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Right.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah.

Megan Nielsen H…:        It’s enrichment and it brings in opportunities to talk about other sort of conservation messages that you might not get to talk about if you just have a pristine water environment that’s replicated.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah. That’s so interesting.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah.

Michelle Salyer:                Do you feel like there’s a big disconnect between the experiential side and the financial side of the planning? And how do you bring those two together? How do you marry the budget with the vision?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah. So I would say there definitely can be. From an experiential standpoint, you always want to be sort of leading edge and seeing how much bang can you get for your buck, like what is the most wow? But then also kind of those guardrails of what is the budget?

And so I think it’s super important to make sure that as part of the programming and planning process that we make sure that we are including cost estimating, either by including cost consultants on the design team side or bringing in the GC early on to do pre-construction services and work directly with the owner and the design team to back-check these ideas against budget.

And I would say in the current cost environment, especially in the last five years, everything’s been so volatile that it’s important to bring in folks that are aware of kind of what’s the latest and greatest information we have on material supply and shortages and costs and things like-

Michelle Salyer:                Supply chain issues, things like that.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Exactly. All of that is super important. And once we have that baseline of, “Okay, what is the current cost environment for these ideas?” Then we can come back and say, “Okay, what is the top priority or the essence that we want to convey here? And is there a way we can do that either with being innovative with materials or space or technology to hit those ideas in a way that’s going to fit the current budget constraints?”

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm. So you mentioned earlier three important groups, the animals of course, the guests, but then I think that the zoo staff might often be overlooked in some of the programming. So how do they fit into the mix of planning for new experiences and exhibits, and what are the ways that you can take their experience or their needs into account?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah. So I think that’s where having these early sessions with each of the departments is very important. There may be things that they’re dealing with on a daily basis that we may not be aware of or even the zoo leadership team may not be aware of, and so giving them that voice early on is really important.

And even kind of including those touch points throughout design where we go through their aspects of the design and get their input can help them really understand the space and sort of get buy-in. And really in the end we try to make sure that these spaces are ones that are going to work well for the staff, trying to design in ways that are going to be efficient for them so they’re not working extra hard, more harder than they have to.

Michelle Salyer:                And hard on their bodies, or…

Megan Nielsen H…:        Exactly. What it-

Michelle Salyer:                I reckon safety is a concern there.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Right. Ergonomics and natural lighting, direct access, things like that that in the end are going to make it a better place for the staff to work and help improve staff retention and make it a place that people want to come to work.

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm. You raised a good point earlier. I mean, the staff might also be among those who are neurodivergent and we need to make accommodations for them as well.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Right. Exactly. And we can think about that and design those opportunities into the background spaces as well.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. Yeah. So I imagine that the book of AZA Standard is quite thick, so tell me a little bit about how those are applied and interpreted and why it’s important to have a firm who really understands those guidelines?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah, so AZA Standards, typically we will look at the husbandry manuals for the species that we are going to be working with, making sure we have the most up-to-date information. And the husbandry manuals cover everything from breeding to feeding to containment, space needs, lighting, airflow, all of that.

And so, one, working with firm that understands that you have to follow those is important. And then also reading through it and understanding what does this mean, how has this been implemented at other institutions, and what are some of the new sort of cutting-edge trends that we can look at to fulfill these needs in a way that is forward-thinking?

Michelle Salyer:                Mm-hmm.

Megan Nielsen H…:        We oftentimes like to look at what are the current standards, and then as part of the design, try to future-proof it a little bit and say give 15% extra space or design in such a way that if we know that changes might be coming or that there’s new best practice in animal well-being that’s not yet reflected in the manual, we go ahead and incorporate that in in ways that firms that don’t have that experience might not know.

Michelle Salyer:                How would you know that changes might be coming? Through your involvement with AZA?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah. So definitely one of the things that I do is attend AZA every year. I’m actually part of the annual conference program planning committee. And so help review those sessions, and making sure that we get sessions on the docket that cover what are the current issues that zoos and aquariums are grappling with now? What are the trends that are coming up? I’m one of the co-liaisons for the trends and more track, and so we work really diligently to curate sessions that are going to help bring that information out and keep current with that.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. Wonderful. What advice would you have for a zoo or aquarium who is beginning to embark on this planning process?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah. So one of the things I would say is just making sure that you allow time and budget in the design process to have these early conversations. They’re really important and they can help set the project up for success. And it’s better to have these discussions early when you’re going to be able to have the most amount of impact for the least amount of cost impact to the project.

And then also just allowing time in the process for owner reviews. Sometimes zoos and aquariums underestimate how much time it takes to get to decisions and to get engagement and buy-in from sort of all of the groups. And everybody working on the project at the zoo, they have their day job and they’re doing this project work in addition to that. And so just making sure that you allow adequate time for review and making sure you prioritize those early cost estimates can really help the project go well in the long run.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. And do you have a favorite project that you’ve worked on?

Megan Nielsen H…:        Oh, man. I would say, let’s see, on the zoo side, I would have to say, man, top two would be in the US, Lincoln Park Zoo. We worked on a Pride of Chicago, the mini master plan, and then were able to implement several of the projects there, and that was just really fun to get to work with the same zoo team over the course of several projects and sort of help modernize a large part of the zoo.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Megan Nielsen H…:        And particularly working with them on their Japanese macaque exhibit, they have an in-house-

Michelle Salyer:                What is a macaque?

Megan Nielsen H…:        A macaque. A primate, a monkey.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yeah.

Michelle Salyer:                Thank you.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Yes. So with the macaques, because they actually have in-house research scientists and in addition to the keeper staff, and so we got to bring that research front and center and let the guests be able to see what they’re doing. So that was super fun.

And then internationally, I would say Auckland Zoo South East Asia Jungle Track is the biggest exhibit in that zoo’s history. We impacted about 1/3 of the zoo through that, and we really got to sort of think about new ways for orangutans, tigers, otters, and tomistomas, which are a crocodilian species.

Michelle Salyer:                Thank you. [inaudible 00:28:38].

Megan Nielsen H…:        You were going to ask that. What are new ways that they can be in their exhibits but be upfront with the guests and sort of living their best life? And so that was really fun.

On the aquarium side, I have to say New York Aquarium Ocean Wonders: Shark was an incredible project both from the animal side and getting to work with some of the places that Wildlife Conservation Society works with in the wild, and talk about their actual work they’re doing in the field to help educate New Yorkers about all the species of sharks that are sort of right off their shore that they might not know about.

And then also the location right on Coney Island Boardwalk was pretty incredible to get to engage with the boardwalk itself and bring people in ways they hadn’t before.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow, really neat. Well, I can tell you definitely have a passion for this work, and you’re right where you need to be.

Megan Nielsen H…:        Awesome.

Michelle Salyer:                So thank you for taking the time to talk with us, and good luck. Can’t wait to see what your next project is.

Megan Nielsen H…:        All right. Thank you.

Michelle Salyer:                Thanks for joining us today for Outside the Box with BRPH. We hope you’ve enjoyed today’s episode as we explored some of the most innovative and challenging projects and the most pressing issues and trends in the AEC world.

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