Michelle Salyer:                Welcome to Outside the Box with BRPH, where we discuss the most innovative, interesting, and outside-the-box solutions to some of the most exciting and challenging projects in the world of architecture, engineering, design, construction, and mission solutions. You’ll hear directly from the problem solvers at BRPH as we dive deep into the latest news, trends and topics in aerospace, defense, manufacturing, and industrial, commercial, education, entertainment, and hospitality. I’m your host, Michelle Salyer, and I’ll be your guide as we open the lid on these topics and more, and invite you for an insider’s look at one of the most successful, fastest-growing employee-owned AEC firms in the United States. Welcome to Outside the Box with BRPH.

Those of us living along Florida’s Space Coast have become very accustomed to the vastly increased frequency of rocket launches in the last few years. During the height of the Space shuttle program, we might’ve seen only two or three launches a year, whereas now we might see two or three launches a week from commercial launch providers. But to those who don’t have the benefit of seeing and hearing rockets launching multiple times a week, the tremendous growth of the commercial space program along with NASA’s plans for Moon and Mars travel probably don’t feel very tangible, and that’s a problem, says Dave Buck, retired lieutenant general from the United States Air Force and president of Mission Solutions for BRPH. Dave is here today to talk about the importance of normalizing the space domain.

Welcome, Dave.

Dave Buck:                         Hello, Michelle. It’s great to be here.

Michelle Salyer:                Thanks for joining us today. So before we jump right in, Dave, give our listeners a little more insight into your background and the space mission areas you’ve worked in.

Dave Buck:                         Wow, okay. Well, here we go. So actually I started off my career in the nuclear operational business. I did that until I was probably captain, and then the space operations area became more important for the Department of Defense, and they were accepting applications for transfers into the Space Operations arena. So I took the opportunity and I jumped over to Space Ops and I haven’t looked back. I’ve been fortunate throughout my career to work in virtually every single space mission area. It’s been a good run.

Michelle Salyer:                Wow. So you’ve been involved in the space arena for a few decades. What do you see as some of the biggest changes or for that matter, some of the biggest challenges that you’ve seen in that time?

Dave Buck:                         Well, I think first and foremost, back in 2019, the biggest foundational change that took place was twofold. First, in the summer of 2019, we stood up a combatant command solely responsible for protecting and defending the space domain. That was a big deal. Recognizing the space domain as an area equal to air, land, and sea that needed to be protected and defended. But maybe even more important, six months later, Congress approved standing up a separate armed service dedicated to space to organize, train, and equip space. That hadn’t happened, Michelle, since 1947 when the Air Force stood up as a separate arm from the Army. I also think that when I first started out in this business, the space domain was driven by anchor tenants. And by anchor tenants, really, it was the Air Force, the National Reconnaissance office, and NASA. But now there’s a new and even more potent force driving the space economy, and this is the commercial sector.

A lot of people predicted that there was going to be a massive uptick in commercial launch activity in space activity back in 2000, 2002 timeframe. But obviously this timing was premature. Technology just simply hadn’t advanced enough to make a good enough business case for return on investment. So here we are some 20 years later, and the timing is right. We have certified pre-owned boosters, additive manufacturing, vertical integration, multiple mission manifesting, composites, updates in policies and procedures. These all contribute to driving the cost down.

Michelle, I read something just last week that the competitive ride-share rate is under 300,000 for 50 kilograms to sun synchronous orbit. So as we look back on 2023, and I think data is what you make of it, but I’m going to give you three countries here, the United States, China, and Russia, which country do you think had the most launches, space launches among those three countries?

Michelle Salyer:                I would guess the United States.

Dave Buck:                         It was the United States, and a lot of people would say China, but it really wasn’t even close. And now my numbers are going to be a little off here, but I think we had in the United States, we had something like 109 space launches. I think China had 67 and Russia had 19. Don’t hold me to that, but that’s pretty close. But the more telling data there is that of those 109 launches from the United States, I think it was 98 were commercial. So commercial has stood the industry on its head, the DOD and NASA and the NRO used to have the preponderance of launches, but now commercial launches, commercial sector has taken over.

Michelle Salyer:                And I think we see that here on the Space Coast. But I wonder if that is as visible or as well known outside this area.

Dave Buck:                         Clearly I don’t believe that’s the case. In that same vein, our spaceports are the linchpins for success, but also the choke points for failure. And our space ports-

Michelle Salyer:                What do you mean by that?

Dave Buck:                         So they’re getting tired, right. We do a lot of launches out the East Coast and out of the West Coast, and it’s all about logistics. These spaceports are critical to the space industry, but we haven’t really done a good job keeping up with investments in the infrastructure for these spaceports. Really the call to action, the burning platform, especially for our industry is how do we modernize these spaceports and how do we maybe even transition to some nontraditional spaceports.

Michelle Salyer:                So you think we’re kind of at a breaking point right now?

Dave Buck:                         I believe that there are logistical challenges with using just our existing space launch infrastructure.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So when you talk about the need to normalize the space domain, what does that really mean?

Dave Buck:                         Yeah, I talk about that, use that a lot. So space has fundamentally changed our way of life. Our financial institutions, critical national infrastructure, I don’t know, communications, weather forecasting, almost everything we do day in and day out depends on the space domain.

Michelle Salyer:                Because of satellite technology.

Dave Buck:                         Right. Michelle, when was the last time you used a paper atlas?

Michelle Salyer:                I can’t even remember.

Dave Buck:                         I can’t remember either. I used to have one in my car and I don’t even have one in my car.

Michelle Salyer:                Yeah, decades.

Dave Buck:                         Can people use compasses anymore? I mean, I was using a ride-share app the other day and I could track Joel, my driver coming in when he was two minutes out. All that flows through space. I just don’t think John Q. Public has a good awareness how critical their everyday lives are on space.

So when I talk about normalizing the space domain, I’m talking about really in acknowledgement that space is just as important as the air, land, and sea domains. Just as important to our economic security, our national security, and economic prosperity. But it’s more than just an acknowledgement. We have to normalize operations in the space domain, and by normalize operations, I mean routinize operations.

So launching a satellite is analogous to launching and landing an aircraft. It’s a routine operation. Refueling a satellite is as simple as gassing up your car or charging your EV. Space domain awareness, having awareness of what is in the space domain, is analogous to knowing where all our ships are in the ocean area. So that’s really what I mean when I talk about normalizing the space domain, treating it like every other domain and getting comfortable and educating our legislatures, our educators, and John Q. Public about space.

Michelle Salyer:                And I see that as challenging because there are no borders in space. We don’t know what’s clearly our area versus Russia versus China or the many other countries that are producing spaceports at this point.

Dave Buck:                         It’s not tangible. You can’t reach out and touch a satellite like you can a car or ship. So it’s really hard to grasp the concepts associated with space. I mean, space really starts notionally at 100 kilometers or 62 miles above the surface of the earth and goes out to really infinity. So it’s really hard to grasp all that stuff, and I get it, but we’re going to get there.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. And I imagine there comes a point where as we see so many more satellites launching, as I said, on weekly basis, multiple launches a week, that low earth orbit becomes very crowded and it becomes a problem. How do we address that?

Dave Buck:                         Yeah, so it’s challenging. We need to have better domain awareness. We need to know where all these spacecraft are. But more importantly, I think it comes down to being able to mitigate debris, old spacecraft, and how we are going to clean up our space environment. I call it littering, especially the low earth orbit domain, but it really applies to MEO, GEO, and to cislunar to some extent. So yeah, that space domain awareness piece, knowing exactly where our satellites are, is critically important.

Michelle Salyer:                Now you’ve been retired from the Air Force for what about six years now.

Dave Buck:                         Uh-huh.

Michelle Salyer:                How do you stay on top of the latest technology and innovation? How are you staying relevant and informed on this topic?

Dave Buck:                         Hard. It is hard. So the first thing I do when I come into work every single day, I turn on my computer and I read the trade journals. I spend 30 minutes, 45 minutes every single day, and I’m a subscriber to numerous trade journals. I read them, I digest it, I see what’s going on. Everything from legislative affairs to the latest mergers and acquisitions, new technologies coming out. In addition to that, I really pride myself on doing a lot of public speaking, chairing panels, fireside chats, keynote addresses. I stay involved in current and relevant because I’m a senior advisor to some of the Space Force’s war games and exercises they conduct.

Michelle Salyer:                Tell me more about the war games.

Dave Buck:                         So it’s important that as we normalize the space domain and we treat it like the other domains that we conduct operational war games and exercises to get better at protecting and defending this critical domain. And that’s exactly what we do. We exercise our ability sometimes with our allies to get better at our trade.

Michelle Salyer:                How do you do that exactly? Without divulging too many secrets.

Dave Buck:                         Exercise, if you can think of a red-blue activity like we do at Nellis Air Force Base, it’s very much a mock exercise against potential adversaries. And I really can’t go into a lot of detail on that.

Michelle Salyer:                Okay. So I imagine there’s a lot of technology involved there. What kind of technology is driving the growth of the space industry or what are the tools needed that we don’t have yet?

Dave Buck:                         Right. I’m really excited about in-space servicing and mobility. Logistics drives ops always has, always will. And so when I talk about in-space servicing and mobility, I’m talking about the ability to refuel satellites on orbit. I’m talking about the ability to recharge, to repair, and even move satellites between orbits or inclinations.

We’re going to get to the point someday where we’re going to be launching satellites without fuel on board because there’s a significant weight penalty when you launch satellites with fuel. But we need to get to a point when we are putting satellites on top of boosters or underneath the belly of a plane and they don’t have any fuel in them. And then we normalize operations when they get on orbit and fuel them when they get on orbit.

Another technology driver, we alluded to it earlier, would be debris mitigation and removal. This is one of my most pressing concerns right now. So we have all this old satellites and on orbit, we have debris from satellites. They do a lot of damage in LEO. That debris is traveling at 17,500 miles per hour. So anything the size of a fleck of paint is like a .22 bullet hitting you, and that causes a lot of damage when it hits it at a spacecraft or even a human, that could be catastrophic. So how do we remove that debris and who pays for it? Is the US responsible for cleaning up other people’s debris? Is an international consortium required to clean up this debris and it’s expensive and how do you track it? So that’s one of the driving factors for technology. I think we’re getting our arms around it, but we’re not quite there yet.

I would say we’re still need to reduce costs associated with placing satellites in orbit. We talk a lot about, I think it’s really cool to say artificial intelligence now. Everyone says AI and machine learning, but do they really understand what that is. I’m not sure everyone understands what it is. But for space, AI and ML are critical. Because right now, Michelle, what we do is we’re on the ground and we’re commanding and controlling these satellites from the ground. We don’t need to do that. These need to be self-driving cars on orbit where they’re thinking, they’re adapting on their own and what better place than in space to do artificial intelligence and machine learning. So I think those technologies are the real drivers in space in addition to other things like green propulsion and stuff like that, but really AI, ML, in-space servicing and mobility, and debris mitigation and removal. I think those are the areas that are going to really drive technology in the future.

Michelle Salyer:                How long do you think it’ll take us to get there? Is this 10 years, 20 years?

Dave Buck:                         So it depends on which one you’re talking about. If I had to place an urgency, I would say we need to clean up our debris pretty quick. I think that’s going to be a little longer timeframe. I think we’re going to get to the in-space servicing and mobility quicker. We’re making great progress on that right now with tugs and motherships and stuff like that, common refueling points, chargers. I think we’ll get there, we always say we’re going to get there quicker than we do, five to seven years, maybe 10 years for when we get our arms around this debris removal thing, and we’re constantly driving launch costs down. So that’s kind of my view of space.

Michelle Salyer:                I think a lot of folks might be surprised to hear a representative of an architecture, engineering, and construction firm talking about the space domain. What are the implications for the AEC industry and why are you so passionate about this topic?

Dave Buck:                         You’re too young to remember.

Michelle Salyer:                I’m older than I look.

Dave Buck:                         You’re too young, Michelle, to remember James Kirk and Star Trek, because I was pretty young when that show was on. And they used to say, “Space, the final frontier.

Michelle Salyer:                I remember that.

Dave Buck:                         It really is the final frontier, and we are explorers at heart. We have conquered air, land, and sea. What’s the next domain? The next domain is space, and we’re going to get our arms around that, but it’s expensive. Why is that important to conquer space? And I’ve got a lot of military coursing through my veins, but if you think back from a military perspective, it was always important to have the high ground. Initially that may have been a mountain top because you could see down on your enemy or it was a hot air balloon where you could do reconnaissance and then it was an airplane. Well, the new high ground is space, and that’s the importance of being in space. It is the ultimate high ground where you can have the bird’s eye view of everything that’s going on on this earth. And as we do the Moon to Mars missions, it’s important to master this domain. So it’s critically important. It’s our biggest growth domain. And it’s a huge opportunity for any AEC company.

Michelle Salyer:                Let’s expand on that. Opportunity in what way?

Dave Buck:                         So if you look at what’s needed, and it’s important for any AEC think to stay up with technology, first and foremost. Can’t rest on our laurels. But it’s also important for AEC companies to, I think, partner with colleges and universities to hire young talent that really understand the space domain. And then we need, as an AEC, we need to not only look what’s needed right now, and what’s needed right now are payload processing facilities and traditional launch pads and skiffs. We need to have the intelligence or the foresight or the insight for that matter to look 5, 7, 10 years in the future, and what is going to be needed to support this growth area.

Really that’s going to be nontraditional spaceports. We are going to migrate away from launching over water and have nontraditional spaceports, landlocked spaceports, launching from sea-based platforms. So we need to be thinking about those types of things. And then what does it look like, and I know this seems like a long ways away right now, but as we develop the lunar ecosystem, what does that look like when we’re building colonies or platforms or buildings or launch ports on the surface of the moon. We need to start thinking about those types of things.

Michelle Salyer:                I would imagine that your involvement with war games, your connections with the government would provide you a little more insight than most. Is that fair to say?

Dave Buck:                         I take a lot of pride in staying current on what’s happening, and not only from the Space Force, but from the commercial space industry as well. So yeah, it really does. It benefits me personally and professionally.

Michelle Salyer:                On that note, what do you think BRPH can offer its aerospace and defense clients that perhaps others may not be able to offer at this point?

Dave Buck:                         Michelle, as I look at BRPH, and one of the reasons I’m with this firm is because space is part of our DNA. We’ve been around for 60 years now. We’re celebrating our 60th anniversary, and we’ve been with NASA side by side. We grew up with NASA developing highly technical, highly complex, and building and designing highly technical, highly complex projects. We have continued to evolve and grow alongside of the space industry. It’s in our backyard. Plus we have people here, including myself, that have unique insight into where the space industry is going. When we have a client at BRPH, it’s not a transitional relationship. We view our clients as partners, long-term partners, what’s good for them is good for us and vice versa. And that’s unique to BRPH.

Michelle Salyer:                We’ve touched on this a little bit, but when it comes to space, what are your biggest concerns right now? What’s at the forefront?

Dave Buck:                         Yeah, so my biggest concern I already talked about, and I won’t harp on that, is debris mitigation and removal. What I’m most excited about is we talk about the traditional orbits. We talk about low earth orbit, medium earth orbit, and geostationary synchronous orbit, and those are fine, but really, I mean, those are important orbits. But what’s really excites me is cislunar. And by cislunar, I’m talking everything from geosynchronous, which is 22,500 miles above the surface of the earth to out to the moon and beyond, 275,000 miles out. That’s widely unexplored, and I think that’s going to be a really important orbital regime for us going forward.

Michelle Salyer:                Thank you, Dave. It’s been very informative. Appreciate you stopping by.

Thanks for joining us today for Outside the Box with BRPH. We hope you’ve enjoyed today’s episode as we explored some of the most innovative and challenging projects and the most pressing issues and trends in the AEC world. Learn more about us at BRPH.com. Email us at [email protected] and follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X. You’ll find this podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Be sure to subscribe so you’ll be notified when new episodes are posted. See you next time on Outside the Box with BRPH.